Miles Away Episode 21: Why You Should Visit Cape Town, South Africa

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We have a very special episode of Miles Away for you today! My good friend and MSNBC anchor Kendis Gibson came on the show to tell us all about one of his favorite destinations in the world, Cape Town, South Africa.

Cape Town (CPT) is about to become far more accessible to US-based visitors, thanks to United's new nonstop flight from Newark (EWR) launching later this year. As Kendis explains, while Johannesburg and a safari are certainly worth a spot on a longer itinerary, Cape Town is an ideal destination for your first trip to South Africa.

You can follow Kendis on Twitter and Instagram, then play this episode of Miles Away above, or listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, including:

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For more on planning a trip to Cape Town:

• 11 of the Most Instagrammable Places in Cape Town
• United to Fly Nonstop From Newark to Cape Town
• 5 Reasons to Visit Cape Town All Year Long

Full Transcript:

Zach Honig: Welcome back to Miles Away. This is your host, Zach Honig. Today on Miles Away we have a very special guest. Kendis Gibson is a weekend anchor at MSNBC. Welcome to the podcast, Kendis.

Kendis Gibson: Hey, it's great to be here.

Zach Honig: Kendis and I, we've gotten a few work-related trips together, most recently to Singapore.

Kendis Gibson: Yes.

Zach Honig: And I think looking back on that Singapore trip, there was one moment that I think I'll never forget, and that was our dinner in the dark.

Kendis Gibson: It was the first time that you and I have ever had dinner together.

Zach Honig: Yeah, and it was the last time, I think, too.

Kendis Gibson: It was the last time. It was absolutely memorable.

Zach Honig: Anyway, moving on from our dinner in the dark to a destination I've wanted to visit for as long as I can remember, at least a decade: Cape Town, South Africa. I have booked a trip, finally, in December because United is launching nonstop service from Newark to Cape Town. Three days a week seasonal service starting December 15th. And I'm going on the inaugural flight.

Kendis Gibson: Fantastic.

Zach Honig: Will I see you there?

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, I'm hoping so. I saw that you posted that you were heading there and I was so incredibly jealous. And immediately when I saw that United was launching this, I'm like, "Why haven't other airlines done this before?" Because obviously you can fly straight to Joburg, but Cape Town hasn't been available and it's just the perfect, perfect flight, I think. It'll be long.

Zach Honig: Yeah, it's 16 hours or so.

Kendis Gibson: 16 hours.

Zach Honig: I was actually expecting them to announce Johannesburg because South African flies nonstop from JFK and Dulles with a stop to Joburg. And I was really excited that it's Cape Town. We'll dig into Cape Town quite a bit.

Kendis Gibson: It is a new market. You'll love it, especially in December, which is the summer, of course.

Zach Honig: So service starts in December, it runs through March, that's summer down there. It's winter here, kind of the best time to make an escape.

Kendis Gibson: It is. It's probably also a very expensive flight, even if you're not using points, just, period. I haven't looked yet....

Zach Honig: Ohhh I've looked. We'll dig into that towards the end of the podcast. I want to start just with a quick recap of the cultural and political history of Cape Town, I guess, and South Africa in general. I mean, if you can fill us in on just the last couple of decades.

Kendis Gibson: Just the last couple of decades.

Zach Honig: Just the last couple of decades, really, a quick elevator pitch, yes.

Kendis Gibson: Nothing really has happened in the last couple of decades in South Africa. I'll tell you, you know what, this country, I've been there now three times. The last time was in September. On the first visit there I realized that they have come further along, or so it seemed, culturally and with race relations, than we have in our 50-plus years since we had the Civil Rights Act and integration. Their reconciliation after Nelson Mandela came out of prison back in the early 1990s has just been absolutely amazing. You look at the South African flag and it is an indication of the blending of all the cultures and the people that are there and that's what they try to do. You would think there would be this sort of racist overtone when you get there... I didn't get that sense at all. I'm sure it's there. Of course, it has to be there, but not as much as I would feel in other parts of this country still to this day.

Zach Honig: Did you have a chance to chat with any of the locals when you were there?

Kendis Gibson: Yeah. I did a lot. The second time I went to South Africa, we actually wanted to drive around the country. We drove from Johannesburg to Kruger National Park, which is about a six-hour drive. Then we drove from Kruger to Durban. That was 14 hours. In that drive, we kept noticing all these people who were hitchhiking, we're like, "Nah, no thanks. We're not picking up anybody." Then we started like, "Ahhh all right. You know what? Kids in uniforms, we'll pick up the kids in uniforms." Then they'd get in the car -- and that's how they'd get to school or get back home. And so we started talking to them and they would tell us some things about where we are. Then we'd drop them off and then we said, "All right, we'll start picking up some women," because we felt as if we were safer and same thing.

Kendis Gibson: We'd be taking them to their grocery store, taking them back home and they'd share some of the culture and then we just branched out and it was a packed car with men, women, kids going the grocery stores, going home from work, going to school, going back home from school. You really got a sense of the culture and the history by talking to some of those folks. A lot of them also didn't speak English, so that was interesting.

Zach Honig: Is hitchhiking legal there?

Kendis Gibson: It's completely legal, it's completely legal -- and it became just something that helped pass the time on a 12-hour trip with one other person.

Zach Honig: So you explored quite a bit of South Africa on your last trip. How many days did you spend there?

Kendis Gibson: Cape Town, I spent five days the last time. I've bounced around. I've done Durban, Kruger, obviously, and Johannesburg... I have some friends in Pretoria. I spent a lot of time in the country. I like to drive around the country, the Garden Route, which is absolutely beautiful in the southeast. Just the history... colonialist history of it is staggering and amazing and how it's come back from that.

Zach Honig: I mean it seems like a stunning country. I've looked at so many pictures over the years and especially (of) Cape Town. Johannesburg seems ... it can be a little rough around the edges.

Kendis Gibson: I think it is rough around the edges. It's gotten sort of trying to be this hip art, jazz sort of center. They have some good bars and good restaurants, but it just doesn't have the feel that Cape Town has, it has more soul than Cape Town, without a doubt. Cape Town just is this natural beauty.

Zach Honig: Would you say that you'd be doing yourself a disservice by focusing on Cape Town exclusively or would it make sense for first trip.

Kendis Gibson: I think first trip -- focus on Cape Town. There's so much to do. Every single day that you're there is a different experience. So I'd definitely focus on Cape Town. If you're going to do more than one city in South Africa, I'd say, or one experience in South Africa, I'd say do Cape Town and then do one of the national parks. Go to Kruger or go to a safari just to mix it up. I wouldn't necessarily say do Durban -- while it's very nice and fun, if you've been to San Diego, you've been to Durban.

Zach Honig: I love San Diego.

Kendis Gibson: We love San Diego.

Zach Honig: Beautiful destination on the West Coast for sure. I usually like to start with kind of a breakdown of the neighborhoods, especially if we're focused on the city. I mean, Cape Town is a city. It's not a huge city, right? I mean, it's pretty walkable and accessible.... At least that's my perspective.

Kendis Gibson: It's fairly spread out. There's a very core downtown area and the hotel that I've stayed every time is right there in the downtown area, but it's pretty spread out. There are different neighborhoods that are very popular: Camps Bay, the Waterfront. There's so many different options as to what sort of experience you'd want when it comes to the neighborhood. So I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a walkable city ... like sure, you could walk a few blocks downtown. I've tried running from downtown to the waterfront, and I'm a runner like you are.

Zach Honig: I'm a cyclist, I guess...

Kendis Gibson: A cyclist... All right.

Zach Honig: A walker. I walk quickly sometimes.

Kendis Gibson: It's a long trek to the waterfront. You have to pick your neighborhood and realize that, all right, on any given day you'll be going to a different neighborhood to experience something different.

Zach Honig: What's your favorite go to neighborhood for staying for your hotel and going out? Can you just kind of walk us through maybe a couple of the key neighborhoods that someone might want to focus on for a first trip?

Kendis Gibson: Okay, for me personally, I like to stay downtown. The waterfront, obviously, is not downtown. I just like to be able to walk to some of the clubs that are there on Long Street. The hotel that I stay at is the Taj Cape Town hotel. I don't know if you can get it on points. I have never gotten it on points, but South Africa -- once you're there, it's really cheap. The rand versus a dollar is incredibly awesome right now. I was just looking at the prices for the hotel that I stay at. Normally it's only $117 a night...

Zach Honig: Wow, I'll say, yes, save those points for something else.

Kendis Gibson: Exactly. It's a Taj hotel along the likes of the Taj Jodhpur, the same company. It's an old converted bank building and has the vault in the basement. There's some coffee shops and bars there (where) the vault used to be. It's across the street from the church where Desmond Tutu was the priest for so many years. It's like two blocks from Long Street and the most awesome, awesome South African clubs are right there within walking distance. It's where locals kind of go to, or so it feels and seemed like. Now mind you, the streets are fairly dark at night. I don't consider it to be dangerous but I wouldn't necessarily walk those streets by myself at night.

Zach Honig: Is there petty crime -- like is pickpocketing an issue, potentially, or is it just "be aware of your surroundings?"

Kendis Gibson: Supposedly petty crime is an issue. I've never had an issue with it, but I think just be aware of your surroundings and don't be stupid.

Zach Honig: Should I expect an active vacation? I mean, both of us are... obviously, you're a runner. You're very, very active. If I want to get the most out of Cape Town, am I going to need to walk around and do some hiking? ... What would you recommend?

Kendis Gibson: You'll do some lifting because you'll go to wine country and lift a lot of wineglasses, but also, like, my favorite thing is to -- and it's very, very touristy and very cliche -- but it is to hike Table Mountain. It's such a massive mountain, as you know, it's about 3,500 feet. They say it's like a two-hour hike. I did it in about an hour and a half because I'm one of those people who just wants to get the pain over with and just be like, "All right, I'm getting this done." I also foolishly hiked it two times without bringing water. Forgetting to...

Zach Honig: Okay, that's a good tip. Bring water.

Kendis Gibson: Bring water. But it's a cool experience. I like to go there early in the morning, try to do breakfast on top of Table Mountain and then just look out on the view and it has of course, unobstructed 360-degree views of South Africa. You can see Robben Island where Nelson Mandela was for so many years from up there as well. Then you take the cable car down.

Zach Honig: What's the climate like in Cape Town? I mean, is it seasonal? Heavily seasonal there?

Kendis Gibson: It doesn't get really, really cold. My birthday is in September, so I've always gone for my birthday. Usually the temperature are in the 70s. While they have some great beach areas, I can't go into the ocean at that point. You just go to those beach towns and kind of just hang out and have some drinks outside. Still t-shirt weather, but you're not necessarily going to dip into the Indian Ocean.

Zach Honig: It makes sense. What are some of the other must-dos in Cape Town?

Kendis Gibson: Well, obviously, definitely you have to hit up wine country, which is about 45 minutes away from downtown Cape Town.

Zach Honig: All those famous South African wines are just from that area?

Kendis Gibson: Stellenbosch area. Most of them are.

Zach Honig: So we did a TPG trip. I didn't get to go on it, unfortunately, but a number of my colleagues went and they sent home several cases of wine. It's very reasonable.

Kendis Gibson: Absolutely. I did the same thing, like, less than a hundred bucks for a case.

Zach Honig: I mean, depending if you have elite status or if you're flying business or first class, you don't have to pay to check it on the flight home. That actually counts as your luggage in some cases.

Kendis Gibson: I would not know that.

Zach Honig: Not a bad strategy, I have to say.

Kendis Gibson: Is it? That's actually genius.

Zach Honig: You can make up for some of that air for that one. So I actually solicited some reader questions on Instagram and someone had asked about safaris that you can do, a day trip safari. Is that a possibility from Cape Town or is that going to be a separate trip?

Kendis Gibson: That's a tough trek from Cape Town. There are some safaris in the south, but it's probably more than a day trip. A safari in itself is a day trip.

Zach Honig: That's a good point.

Kendis Gibson: So getting to the location would take a little bit of a trek. If you want to go shark diving, there is that within an hour away.

Zach Honig: Someone had asked about shark diving, too. It wasn't even really on my radar, but what's that like? Did you do it?

Kendis Gibson: No, I did not do it. I'm a black man. We don't do that. We don't do shark diving at all.

Zach Honig: Well, I'll put it on my list so and let you know how it goes.

Kendis Gibson: Yes, exactly. Do let me know. It looks really cool. It looks adventurous and they do it every day. They say it's safe. It's fantastic. There are also some great spots to go, apparently, bungee jumping nearby.

Zach Honig: Now that is something I will not do.

Kendis Gibson: Okay. Wow.

Zach Honig: We can trade. I'll go shark diving, you go bungee jumping.

Kendis Gibson: I'll pass on both, but there's some cool spots in the south.

Zach Honig: So you mentioned you usually go in September and the temperatures (are) in the 70s, maybe not ideal for a full day at the beach, but have you visited any of the beaches in the area? Is beach culture a big thing in Cape Town?

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, it's a huge culture. They're big into surfing. Camps Bay is a very popular beach, Clifton beach as well is very popular. That's where the rich and famous people are. And there's so many amazing beaches over there and it's within a 45-minute drive of downtown Cape Town. There's also the Cape of Good Hope, as you know, which had the reputation in the past or people believe that it's the southern most point in Africa.

Zach Honig: That's what I was going to say but I'm not 100% sure.

Kendis Gibson: It isn't. It has like a sign and it says "Southeastern most point in Africa," it's almost like an asterisk, but it's just a cool point. It's not where the Atlantic Ocean meets the Indian Ocean at all. It's pure Atlantic Ocean.

Zach Honig: Speaking of water though, I can't really think of Cape Town these days without thinking about the recent water crisis and how that impacted tourists. And I remember, I mean, we covered it very, very closely at The Points Guy and we actually did, we produced a video recently, our video team did a phenomenal job with the video just jkind of outlining the crisis there and how that impacted locals and tourists alike. Was that an issue when you were there?

Kendis Gibson: It wasn't an issue when we were there, but I recall distinctly one of my good friends that used to work at ABC News and our foreign correspondent went there during the crisis. He felt as if the government was being a little bit alarmist about how big of a crisis it was, and when they realized how big of an impact it was having on the bottom line and the tourist dollars, suddenly this water crisis...

Zach Honig: Just evaporated?

Kendis Gibson: Just evaporated, so to speak.

Zach Honig: Actually, I completely took Cape Town off of my list of potential destinations because ... not permanently, but during the crisis. I mean, I was reading about how hotels were rationing, like, how long you could take a shower and things like that. There's so many places in the world, it's easy enough to just not go to Cape Town right now.

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, so did a lot of people take it off their list and it wasn't really impacting the people who were visiting South Africa at the time. The people that it was really impacting were many of the poor people in South Africa because you had these cops that would be policing the streets and looking for people who were violating the conservation efforts.

Zach Honig: Yeah, I remember even reading about how some people were trucking in water. They were bringing tankers in from elsewhere in the country and bringing water into Cape Town. Yeah, recently we haven't heard anything about the water crisis in South Africa at all.

Kendis Gibson: They did have some water issues, but so does much of southern Africa. A lot of those countries are suffering from drought issues because of the global warming and climate change. So it just so happens that South Africa and Cape Town's problem got highlighted in all of this.

Zach Honig: We're going to have to take a quick break and then when we come back we're going to dig into some flight and hotel options.

(Commercial break.)

Zach Honig: There's one key gateway to Cape Town and that is CPT, which is the main airport there, obviously. Is it close to the city? Can you get around pretty easily from the airport back to, you know....?

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, it's relatively close. It's about 30 minutes away from the city.

Zach Honig: Is there public transportation or do you have to drive?

Kendis Gibson: You rent a car, but car rental is so inexpensive. About $12 a day.

Zach Honig: Oh wow. That's nothing. Okay.

Kendis Gibson: Absolutely. The airports in Joburg and in Cape Town are wonderful gateway airports. I think they built them up for the World Cup in 2010. Easy to get to downtown from the airport and it's a beautiful drive into the city. From there, you can see the Table Mountain, you drive pass the townships ... which by the way, I actually recommend doing a day trip to the townships. They're primarily where black folks used to live, back in the days, and it's the only place that they were allowed to live, but they still remain some of the poorest areas around. The culture and the nature of those townships -- it's just fantastic to kind of soak it up. The one between the airport and downtown Cape Town is called Gugulethu. It is massive. There are no skyscrapers or anything like that.

Kendis Gibson: It's just huts for the most part, but within those huts it's really like living in a vibrant city where there's some cool restaurants where you could get some great street meat and some cool little clubs where you can get a sense of the nature of the actual South African people and Mandela's people as well. It's worth going to and they're more than welcoming to strangers.

Zach Honig:Can you just drive through or do you do some research in advance?

Kendis Gibson: You can do some research in advance and try to find out what restaurants you're trying to go to or where that restaurant might be. After the first time I went there and I realized how poor some of these areas were and how awesome the kids were, when I've gone in the past I've just kind of linked up with a church group and just taken, like, a suitcase that I didn't want and just left it with the church group ... clothes to just give out, because the kids need stuff.

Zach Honig: That's a good tip. When you're flying business or first class down to Cape Town, fill your suitcase with things you want to donate and bring back some wine.

Kendis Gibson: Yes, and so you feel guilt-free when you're sipping back on that wine.

Zach Honig: Man, I like that. So, what's the food like in general, I guess, in Cape Town? I mean, any must-have dishes?

Kendis Gibson: It's a mix of all the cultures (that) have kind of taken over South Africa over the years. There's a big Indian influence. There's some great roti, lots of good curry. There's a lot of Dutch food as well. And then there's some good African fare. I don't eat red meat. Lamb is big. There's a really, really fancy restaurant that we went to that takes about a month or so to get a reservation. But if you go to a nice hotel, obviously, your concierge can get you in. It's called Test Kitchen. It's in the Woodstock area of town, which is a beautiful area, its nicely painted buildings. It's about 20 minutes, I'd say, from downtown. It's a famous South African chef. It's got some amazing dishes. It's a little pricey by South African standards, for two maybe it will cost you about $200, but it's like food orgasm. It's awesome.

Zach Honig: Man, all right, it's on my list.

Kendis Gibson: Yes.

Zach Honig: So speaking of getting to Cape Town, and we talked about the airport, obviously, but the options are somewhat limited and they have been for quite a while. Obviously there haven't been any nonstop flights from the US ever to Cape Town. So United going into that market in December is huge. I can only imagine they're already marketing the flight as, like, a connection to North America in South Africa as well. Aside from those South African flights, the one from Dulles and New York-JFK, there really haven't been very many options. You'd have to connect in Europe, which would add a considerable amount of time to your trip.

Kendis Gibson: It does, but I'll tell you, there's a natural connection that I've done several times with Air France where you take the A380 from D.C. or New York and you get to Paris and there's such a long layover. It gives you a natural long layover, about 17 to 20 hours depending on if you're coming from Dulles or New York City, where you can just make a day trip out of it in Paris and then get back on the plane and then head south. For me, it's always meant the best of both worlds, where I felt as if I spent some time in Paris and then headed back down south to Cape Town.

Zach Honig: That's a good tip because, I mean, that might be something that people would even want to consider now after United launches the flight because the fares on this United flight are really, really high. I mean, I've found some dates where you can book economy for about $1,000, business for maybe, you know, $4,000 round trip, I mean it's high, but it's not too crazy considering there is no competition. But the award rates are out of this world.

Kendis Gibson: How incredible are the awards?

Zach Honig: I priced them out. We're going to see about 140,000 miles each way for economy.

Kendis Gibson: For economy!

Zach Honig: And then business class, 300,000 miles each way is not uncommon for this new nonstop flight.

Kendis Gibson: It's egregious.

Zach Honig: So if you're a couple going down to South Africa, nonstop Newark to Cape Town, you're going to need 1.2 million miles for two tickets round trip in business class.

Kendis Gibson: I would completely recommend taking the Air France flight where you can sit upstairs -- and if you sit upstairs on an A380 in economy, it's sort of like the poor man's business class. I don't know if you've sat in those seats up in the back on A380 in economy.

Zach Honig: I have flown economy on the Air France A380 but there was this one seat that has no seat in front of it because there's an access panel on the floor, so that's what I recommend.

Kendis Gibson: Well there's an entire area cabin to the back of the A380 on the Air France flights that are economy pricing. It makes it seem as if it's a small little cabin that you can just kind of hang out there and it's almost like premium economy seats and it's a cool little spot. You get a comfortable ride. It's not very expensive, normally, on Air France. And then you spend some time in Paris and then just do another 10 hours to Cape Town.

Zach Honig: Perfect. I mean, well, if you're using Delta miles, I mean, Air France and KLM are your only options to get to Cape Town. There really isn't any, I mean, there's very limited business class award availability. You're kind of limited to economy anyway. You're going to be looking at 50,000 miles roughly each way in economy so 100,000 miles round trip. It sounds like a lot.

Kendis Gibson: It wasn't that bad.

Zach Honig: It's not that bad. It really depends on the cash fares. So I mean, if you're finding $800 round-trip cash fares, do you really want to use 100,000 miles, plus taxes? Probably not.

Kendis Gibson: It's a good way to put it.

Zach Honig: If you do want to use United miles, you have other affordable options. You can fly Lufthansa, like you mentioned. Swiss through Edelweiss, they do a seasonal flight as well. Austrian flies down there. Obviously South African Airlines, but those flights are going to Johannesburg, so then you would connect in Johannesburg and make your way over. But that could actually save you some time over a connection in Europe, especially if you don't want to spend a full day in a European city.

Kendis Gibson: And Emirates also is competing in that market as well.

Zach Honig: Yeah, there's Emirates ... you can use Alaska miles to fly Emirates and then you can use Emirates miles as well, transferred from American Express, so that is an option. But the surcharges are pretty high.

Kendis Gibson: Are they?

Zach Honig: Then Ethiopian is also an option, and you can connect in Addis Ababa, as well, and use your United miles for that.

Kendis Gibson: Ethiopian has been competitive as well. And what about Kenya Air? Because they seem like they've been trying to...

Zach Honig: They've really been trying to get in the market. It's not really something that you can redeem miles for easily, but it is an option, definitely. Then you can pair it with a stop in Kenya, of course.

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, exactly.

Zach Honig: And then Oneworld as well, very limited when it comes to Oneworld, there's British Airways, but you'll have very high taxes and fees, especially business and first class. Then Qatar Airways as well, which could be an option and may have availability. Then you mentioned the hotel rates are pretty reasonable.

Kendis Gibson: It's easier to just put it on your American Express card or your Chase Reserve card and get the points from that instead of using points for it, I think.

Zach Honig: Well, I mean, the other option, too, is you can use credit card points to offset the costs if you have fixed value points or you could book with hotels.com. And the Venture card, which is something I've been doing a lot more recently, because if you have a Capital One Venture card, you can get essentially 20% back by booking through hotels.com, so an option to consider.

Kendis Gibson: I didn't even think of that. Great.

Zach Honig: Put that on the list.

Kendis Gibson: Yes.

Zach Honig: Then there aren't any Hyatt hotels, and Hyatt kind of become a go-to for me recently, but no Hyatts, but there are plenty of Marriott options because Marriott has Protea, I think.

Kendis Gibson: Protea.

Zach Honig: Yeah, they're part of the Marriott chain now and some of the rates are really reasonable with points starting at 12,500 points per night.

Kendis Gibson: That's not bad.

Zach Honig: Not bad at all. No.

Kendis Gibson: No. I will say, the best hotel in South Africa that I've never stayed at, but it's nice to just kind of go and check out -- it's part of a chain, is the one and only Cape Town. It's right there in the center of downtown Cape Town and (has) sort of like a moat around it. It's like an old colonialist-type building. It's a beautiful little space.

Zach Honig: I mean, there's a pretty good chance they could be part of the Amex Fine Hotels and Resorts program, too, so certainly worth looking there as well.

Kendis Gibson: I didn't know about that program, but I'm writing that one down.

Zach Honig: We've got a lot to talk about.

Kendis Gibson: Of course they have hotels in Dubai.

Zach Honig: There's one in the Maldives too.

Kendis Gibson: Exactly.

Zach Honig: Kendis, if someone wants to follow along with your adventures on social media, where will they find you on Instagram and Twitter?

Kendis Gibson: On Instagram, I'm @kendisgibson, at Twitter, @kendisgibson. I'm not very creative.

Zach Honig: Well you got a recognizable brand name, I think, you've got that.

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, and by following me along, it just means following my links which are following you. I'm living vicariously through you.

Zach Honig: Well, I hope we get to do another trip together.

Kendis Gibson: Yeah, that would be great.

Zach Honig: Thanks for coming on.

Kendis Gibson: Thanks for having me.

Zach Honig: Thanks again to Kendis Gibson, weekend anchor at MSNBC, and to Acast for offering up their fantastic studio here in Tribeca. I also want to thank Margaret Kelley and Caroline Schagrin, our fantastic podcast producers; Ryan Gabose for editing the podcast and music by Alex Schiff. I am your host, Zach Honig. This is Miles Away. Safe travels.